This marvelous initiative is failing its own purpose - big time.
I have been following and trying Inkscape in recent years, hoping it can become reasonably useful and time saving for my (very simple, very basic) needs. Almost every time - I quit frustrated with either no solution to my specific needs, or an answer that is crooked and/or cumbersome. And always needing to spend ridiculous amount of time on research instead of getting the job done. - jobs that in, say, CorelDraw or Microsoft Word around year 2000, would take minutes, with mere intuition and no research.
NO MORE!
Yesterday I spent 4 hours trying to find out how I can fill objects with stripes and other graphic patterns - a very basic feature in any software that deals with filling shapes. The "solution" I reached, hardly documented, is incredibly complicated, non intuitive, and actually doesn't even produce the results as expected I appreciate the great effort invested in the Inkscape project, BUT Sorry to say - this is a shame! And again reflects a bad tool/software design philosophy aimed (at best) at software people as users, not at graphic designers of any level, let alone simple everyday users.
In these same years I also follow the Sweet Home 3D, program - developed by much less people, and yes, still far from perfect and full of oddities. But it gets the job done, and with quite little effort on learning and research.
Imho op's claims were already made from the beginning. Assuming sweet home 3D was more of a help the original problem was probably how to add a decent looking wooden floor tiling to a floorplan coming in whatever form -as an imported jpeg maybe. Yes, that wouldn't be so obvious how to edit areas of a raster image with a seamless pattern in inkscape, especially if you want to edit the base tile later. It can be done yet you wouldn't have more luck with illustrator or affinity designer either.
And yes, that's what we get if the inkscape project's self declared goal is only to provide freedom and to provide it for free -and nothing more. While neither is true nor solves anything in itself. But rather opens the door for confused and frustrated users. Not a big fan of Nick's tutorials but at least he admits that it's all but a tool and everything can be as effective as their users.
Lazur: I am not at all comparing (or inter-using) Sweet Home 3D functions with Inkscape functions, but rather as two somewhat similar development initiatives - and their resulting product, in terms of getting the job done etc. And speaking of SH3D's pattern functionality - it's far from perfect functionality and usability wise, but it lets you get the job done. Unless you are very fine and picky, there is no need for external raster nor vector editing, And very little need for research..
Felicia: I appreciate your passion, the huge effort, and many awesome content produced with Inkscape - as you point out. I have not overlooked "patterns" in the online manual's index, 🙈🙈🙈 Showing "stripes as the very first pattern shown" doesn't make actually filling with stripes any less cumbersome. "All" one needs to do is (I quote the summary of a ~10 page tutorial refereed by your link as the place to learn how to fill with stripes):
Start Inkscape and set the drawing size [for the tile!].
Create a tile prototype.
Clone tile.
Decorate tile.
Use base tile for tiling. ["Use" meaning what? I am here to learn the whole thing!]
... and then start struggling with how to actually make those stripes appear the way you want them to - 4 hours were not enough for me (ex software engineer, using graphic software for ages) to make this work.
All this while filling with stripes in any basic graphic application is a 1-5 click operation!!!
If this is what "Draw Freely" means - it is extremely misleading!!
And still, by "a shame" I meant "what a big pity", There is of course nothing shameful in this project.
WOW Tyler, this is amazing! Thanks! I did try "Using the Node tool" in several ways, but apparently missed the right way. So the stripe problem is behind us... what about any other very basic, regular, pattern? And I hope you agree this case doesn't ONLY say something about MY ability to understand...!
Hi. I think Tyler shared an excellent gif "tutorial".
Also, I know it can be frustrating to get into the "meat" of some things within Inkscape. One often has to be a detective of sorts to go through written material and videos all over the internet, to learn and "see" things from a different perspective. And then find your own "ahah !" moment when connecting one idea to another. Trial and error, and much experimenting sometimes is the only way forward.
All that being said, there are many video materials about this and other Inkscape ideas and techniques.
I understand exactly what you mean, Not saying I'm falling into the trap.
Commercial software where MS is a to be remarked party is frauding things. So there is first a problem and it is rarely talked about. For Inkscape it isn't that relevant, though the thing is attention. Graphical software of various kinds is a knowhow.
All in all (not being able to say everything), Inkscape it's advanced. There is actually no monetary price. One would have to consider certain high standing principles. I am not saying it is how it should be, or that this has anything to do with Inkscape on itself. But it is like using Inkscape is being invited to the most high standing art community, or how to call it. Again I'm not approving of certain principles that basically have nothing to do with Inkscape. But it is like this tool is available to you that docters, high academics could just take and use as well. In the profession Inkscape is about. And all these things work like that.
Basically for Inkscape I don't see much of a problem in a sense of what does the majority allow? I mean that in other cases things are beyond acceptable.
With Inkscape yes, you must do everything yourself. It is basically a noble tool (but you must do everything yourself!). This typical character of a professional tool. You'd yes, have to first invest in understanding how everything works. And then do everything yourself.
I think too little people realize that sort of things.
It could take a reply and a conversation to say it completely.
Hi.. I am very sorry that you are frustrated with some aspects o inkscape UX. Trust me i am too and trying to fix some. Problem is that Inkscape is more general tool than sweethome3d so we need to satisfy much more workflows than just one specific also hude legacy code and dependence on GTK. I know its hard to understand this stuff if you are not involved in development. I invite you to help project and add som documentation or donate to the project . btw: I would not call our pattern workflows easiest but i don't believe if you google how to use patterns in inkscape it would be not solved in 2 minutes. That being said i am also not happy how pattern works (especali editing)
the filling with pattern is the function i would use more often since i started to use inkscape to create paths to cut and engrave with my lasercutter.
I didn't find an easyuse solution yet but since i setted again my lasercutter after an year i'll try to use inkscape again, also with the help of Tyler's gif.
Is often more difficult to use opensource softwares (for many reasons involved with freedom) and i understand Itay's frustration. I understand it's the consequence of hard work and difficult results, and i'm sure he will find again the strenght to put other efforts on it - another time. Sometimes it's necessary to take a pause, it's physiologic and there's nothing bad in it!
The point being made - which. children do not understand - is that time is money. If I waste 1 minute an hour on reading a poorly edited manual, searching for you tube vids, waiting for simple functions to work, learning the 17 types of tesselations instead of using an array command, preparing for the memory dump bug, etc, etc, etc - and then having to deal with posts that defame one's character - the time adds up. With 2000 hours.billable per year - that's 33.33 hours of money wasted. When the act Jr designer makes appx $30 per hour - that time loss equates to $1000. How the heck is inkscape free? The only real professional sponsor it might have is red hat. And inkscape wonders why!? Professionals seek professionalism. The lack of primary concern for our time is extremely unprofessional and it drives away funding. Inkscape has targeted the amateur audience and they complain when they get what they want - amateurish penny ante donations which are all their selected audience can afford.
It is frustrating, yes. But money doesn't guarantee anything.
The inkscape project is built upon volunteer work and it's a dilemma how to integrate funded development of features.
Like refactoring code is less groundbreaking from a marketing viewpoint althoughthat could boost performance. The project aims for the best foss svg editor on the market -nothing more.
They hold no liability or guarantee the function of the program as a whole. Thinking of packages like the cairo renderer -relying on third party wrriten code.
Yet, at the moment, it is still working somehow.
Contrary, how "professional" softwares work.
Can speak from how it is in the architect field here. Archicad is being the most used, about 90% of the market.
Now, they develop a new version every year. Files are not backwards compatible, nor can you copy&paste even a single line from a newer to an older instance.
A single license costs around 3800 $ and if you had a previous version and want to upgrade annually that'd cost 2200 $ +vat.
What do you get in return?
A clunky interface that provides the user experience of win95 and no direct feedback with the developers. Even mspaint provides better anti-aliasing.
Menus not opening with text visible, constant need to resize them; can't open two dialogs simultaneously. Can't change the theming, icons or menu font size.
"It's perfect" is their ultimate trump card on their fb group -if it doesn't proveide flawless user experience, it's all your fault.
Why is that industry standard in the professional field?
It doesn't make sense. Snapping is so horrible that you have to wait extra seconds on finding the right coordinates with the dimensioning tool and eventually start over times.
It's a reliable time waster. If it worked as intended, it could cut the drawing time to 10%.
Yet here we are, with pirated crack codes because 80% of that 90% who are using archicad cannot afford a single license.
Seriously. I'm getting more and more annoyed with it. Like, how many developers would it require to produce a capable cad software from scratch? Would the fees be more than the cost of 10 ac single license?
Getting the feeling it's the same with simple 2D vector drawing softwares. You have to invest into developing them or rely on how the software is developed by other's ideas.
Although I still think you'd be better off using a game engine for your project. There are many foss ones too.
I am not being industry specific. Software should be developed for professional end users. By professional I mean those who want to use the software to make a lot of money. One minute of wasted end user time is too much. Time expectations from the user must be priority one. Professional software understands that. Professionals fund professionalism. Lazur mentions architects paying for crap software. They do so because it is a biz deduction. If inkscape solved their needs in a professional way - and if it were structured as a biz that could take deductable donations - the architects would be using and funding it instead. The facts of biz mean they would be donating the same amount - but they would be using software they helped make appropriate for drawing. It seems inkscape intentionally does not accept that.
The language of the professional is the language that must be used by the developers. EG professional drawers look for an array, not a tesselations tile. Blender calls it an array because that is what it is. Expecting that coders read a few books that we who draw for a living practically memorize, is not asking too much when they claim to be making quality product for our market. Learn how we use drawing and facilitate what we do. Functions and speed - not work arounds.
And as for volunteerism - inkscape has to rely upon it because they do not have enough professional funding. I just explained why. Also, when a 20 year professional UX-UI designer comes into the forum and tells us we need to improve - how is he reacted to? Is he asked to volunteer his time to offer his suggestions in a more formal way? NO. He was basically told to go away. Inkscape's insulting tone and the way it treats users is why it is not better funded. For example - declaring my advice to a user who wanted to enter fullscreen mode - I told him it was f11 - to be useless and distracting info - then web host started a new thread as though it were me doing so - and posted it in cafe. Why? To childishly insult a user. And then surprise when volunteers and funding walk away. Even this thread shows the attitude problem of "play our game our way or we will take our toys and go home."
All contributors to this thread should watch it closely - it will be edited or disappear.
My impression it's the other way around. They put in work as passion/mission.
There are plenty of funds but the project has to spend every last bit of it as it is run as a non-profit organisation.
As long as it doesn't come with the burden of too much responsibility or cause negative feelings.
It's quite understandable that unasked criticism even if intended constructively is a hit and miss.
This forum is here to provide a flourishing user community, and discussing flaws only is a not so welcomed part. Even at best, we focus on solutions.
Ok, there are flaws. What can we do about it?
We need to learn programming or contacting developers and learn the initiative of the project,
track what are the bottlenecks of the issue and find a way to fix them.
The other day it was asked why inkscape cannot import raster images larger than 32768 px. It was a specific issue from another user and I also encountered that issue.
What can we do about it? Turns out, not much. Inkscape is using cairo to render raster images and it's a hard-wired limitation that it can't handle.
Can it be patched? No.
Needs cairo to rebuild a portion of their codes? Probably. Do they have the intention, if so, what do they need to do so?
Or
Can we find a new rendering engine? Vulkan, perhabs?
Probably. Can we try out different renderersin the mean time? Yes. What's needed there? Basic understanding of inkscape codebase and knowledge on compiling a custom build.
You see these need more knowledge of the project and coding in general.
Either pay for development or make volunteers interested. Never expect something out of thin air.
The project provided something many find useful without listening to anyone for their ideas on direction. It was never an intention to make every future user happy at the first place.
@Lazur There are not plenty of finds avail. - that is why they are seeking a volunteer Mac specialist instead of paid as the job was posted on site a few weeks ago. If project is non-profit, in US that would probably be a 501 c3. Good to know and will confirm later. When much of the criticism has been the same for 10 years + the problem is not the complainers. The problem is a lack of response to user observations. I saw the post about Cairo and i think I posted as well. The question is why have the options been defined as they are? If other software - blender - can do more, and is foss too - why can't inkscape? A - it does not want to. The philosophy is that the users should play that way or the toys will be taken away. Exactly the wrong philosophy.
As for the fun of it - inkscape is perceived by professional end users as near useless bloat of a dead corpse built on work arounds, vocabulary used by those who do not understand it, Swiss cheese gimmickry, and kilobyte era code hacks. At some point those problems will need to be solved. We are already at that point. Encourage having fun making a tool rather than a toy. MANAGEMENT
Success will attract the successful. It is more fun and useful to network with success.
I see a huge roadblock for improvement is sticking to the svg format. But that won't change as it is the very base of the project.
You got some point but unfortunately those won't reach to developers or affect development in a positive direction. Better asking question than straight up tell them how outdated their work&work ethics are.
As far as I know the blender foundation pays its developers.
And they are not based on an outdated proof of concept standard defined by third party vendors.
They also have a wider user/market, and the industry is catching on. Right now they are competing with maya -3dsmax era seems to be gone.
Guess if there was a more severe competition in the 2D vectorgraphic market developers would be more motivated focusing on those issues. Not knowing for sure, as said before it wasn't the first intention to go big, just to be the best at editing svg-s freely.
Do you remember the earlier blender interface? It was horrible. The forums saw the same complaints as inkscape sees. The management reacted the same way too. Then one day, the euro auto industry basically went to blender and told them they would fund the foundation - if - blender adopted a professional mind set, stopped acting like territorial children, and put user time management above all else. Today, after redesigning the interface, and concentrating on end user nerds - they have the finding to pay their developers. The lesson is that professional behavior attracts professional funding.
Inkscape could do the same for 2D. SVG is not - as far as I understand it - the problem. ( Seeing it as a changing protocol rather than a stabilized tool to create 2D art with is problematic and a focus problem. ) The Mandalorian has dissolved the edge between the real and virtual stage. Artists need to draw props accurately in 2D - accurate as in CAD precise - and then model them in 3D to print as safe, useful props on stage. The best workflow to do so will be with a much improved inkscape for tech drawing and elevation into blender to terminate the pipeline.
First, inkscape needs to eliminate the childishness and begin to attract donations by elimination of the time wasters.
@NELCHAI Glad I can also vent out my fustration about archicad.
Used blender time to time and was familiar with the 2.79 interface.
Stlii need to relearn the new gui. The new one favors old users of maya yet the industry pipeline is still revolves aroud maya and the market is just sloowly changing.
As agencies would need to reinvest in developing their own ways, recreate old assets etc.
It's a debate how blender still cannot be considered as an industry standard. It's a tool for a job, and there are paid competitors outshining on one aspect. Blender is a swiss army knife, good for general purpose, but not coming without compromises when it comes to large scale projects.
It can simulate alot of things but professionals use houdini or ansys for that. Can sculp, but z-brush is better at it. Can video edit and composite, but davinci resolve is more preferred.
Has its ways for parametric design,but can't compete against grasshopper etc.
Blender foundation is autonomous. The founder had a vision and even though adobe also funds blender development, they won't give any authorship or decision in favor to them -hopefully.
Blender doesn't offer a one size fits all solution. For gaming, there is unity and unreal -and thus they stopped developing blender game engine.
Fitting tool to do the fitting job or even a professional tool can end up a time waster choice for the wrong project.
For what it's matter blender can do the most necessary drawing you'd import from inkscape so it's easier not to rely on importing.
Fully aware that the limitations I personally encountered with inkscape come from me pushing things to the extreme. Hardly anyone is drawing some of what I did previously and althoughit would be nice to have those issues solved it's totally reasonable that the development is focusing on current user satisfaction.
Anyway I'm always considering changing careers and having a go with developing a decent (cad) drawing program.
you're frustrated with Inkscape's usability and how it falls short of your expectations, especially when compared to older software like CorelDraw or Microsoft Word. You're particularly disappointed with the difficulty in finding solutions to basic tasks and the lack of intuitive features, such as filling objects with patterns. While you appreciate the effort put into the Inkscape project, you feel that it's not designed with graphic designers or everyday users in mind. In contrast, you mention Sweet Home 3D, which despite its imperfections, is easier to use and gets the job done with less effort.
Community Café Goodbye Inkscape: the last straw
Inkscape.org
This marvelous initiative is failing its own purpose - big time.
I have been following and trying Inkscape in recent years, hoping it can become reasonably useful and time saving for my (very simple, very basic) needs.
Almost every time - I quit frustrated with either no solution to my specific needs, or an answer that is crooked and/or cumbersome.
And always needing to spend ridiculous amount of time on research instead of getting the job done.
- jobs that in, say, CorelDraw or Microsoft Word around year 2000, would take minutes, with mere intuition and no research.
NO MORE!
Yesterday I spent 4 hours trying to find out how I can fill objects with stripes and other graphic patterns - a very basic feature in any software that deals with filling shapes.
The "solution" I reached, hardly documented, is incredibly complicated, non intuitive, and actually doesn't even produce the results as expected
I appreciate the great effort invested in the Inkscape project, BUT Sorry to say - this is a shame!
And again reflects a bad tool/software design philosophy aimed (at best) at software people as users, not at graphic designers of any level, let alone simple everyday users.
In these same years I also follow the Sweet Home 3D, program - developed by much less people, and yes, still far from perfect and full of oddities.
But it gets the job done, and with quite little effort on learning and research.
It's sad to read but I wish you all the best 😉
Wow, what a bummer. Sad to see you go... all those fun exchanges we had on the forums over the years. 😂
Funny how it is so easy it is to overlook "patterns" in the online manual's index, and stripes is the very first pattern shown. 🙈
Speaking of failing, look at all these folks' work and imagine how they must struggle with Inkscape.
Must be the shameful software.
Bye, Felicia.
Imho op's claims were already made from the beginning. Assuming sweet home 3D was more of a help the original problem was probably how to add a decent looking wooden floor tiling to a floorplan coming in whatever form -as an imported jpeg maybe. Yes, that wouldn't be so obvious how to edit areas of a raster image with a seamless pattern in inkscape, especially if you want to edit the base tile later. It can be done yet you wouldn't have more luck with illustrator or affinity designer either.
And yes, that's what we get if the inkscape project's self declared goal is only to provide freedom and to provide it for free -and nothing more. While neither is true nor solves anything in itself. But rather opens the door for confused and frustrated users. Not a big fan of Nick's tutorials but at least he admits that it's all but a tool and everything can be as effective as their users.
Thanks people for taking the time to respond !!
Lazur:
I am not at all comparing (or inter-using) Sweet Home 3D functions with Inkscape functions, but rather as two somewhat similar development initiatives - and their resulting product, in terms of getting the job done etc.
And speaking of SH3D's pattern functionality - it's far from perfect functionality and usability wise, but it lets you get the job done. Unless you are very fine and picky, there is no need for external raster nor vector editing, And very little need for research..
Felicia:
I appreciate your passion, the huge effort, and many awesome content produced with Inkscape - as you point out.
I have not overlooked "patterns" in the online manual's index, 🙈🙈🙈
Showing "stripes as the very first pattern shown" doesn't make actually filling with stripes any less cumbersome.
"All" one needs to do is
(I quote the summary of a ~10 page tutorial refereed by your link as the place to learn how to fill with stripes):
... and then start struggling with how to actually make those stripes appear the way you want them to
- 4 hours were not enough for me (ex software engineer, using graphic software for ages) to make this work.
All this while filling with stripes in any basic graphic application is a 1-5 click operation!!!
If this is what "Draw Freely" means - it is extremely misleading!!
And still, by "a shame" I meant "what a big pity", There is of course nothing shameful in this project.
(First paragraph of the section on patterns.)
🙈
Have a nice day.
TD
WOW Tyler, this is amazing! Thanks!
I did try "Using the Node tool" in several ways, but apparently missed the right way.
So the stripe problem is behind us... what about any other very basic, regular, pattern?
And I hope you agree this case doesn't ONLY say something about MY ability to understand...!
Hi. I think Tyler shared an excellent gif "tutorial".
Also, I know it can be frustrating to get into the "meat" of some things within Inkscape. One often has to be a detective of sorts to go through written material and videos all over the internet, to learn and "see" things from a different perspective. And then find your own "ahah !" moment when connecting one idea to another. Trial and error, and much experimenting sometimes is the only way forward.
All that being said, there are many video materials about this and other Inkscape ideas and techniques.
For instance ...
this google video search
All the best to you, and all of us, as we keep on using Inkscape.
Maybe this will help:
I understand exactly what you mean, Not saying I'm falling into the trap.
Commercial software where MS is a to be remarked party is frauding things. So there is first a problem and it is rarely talked about. For Inkscape it isn't that relevant, though the thing is attention. Graphical software of various kinds is a knowhow.
All in all (not being able to say everything), Inkscape it's advanced. There is actually no monetary price. One would have to consider certain high standing principles. I am not saying it is how it should be, or that this has anything to do with Inkscape on itself. But it is like using Inkscape is being invited to the most high standing art community, or how to call it. Again I'm not approving of certain principles that basically have nothing to do with Inkscape. But it is like this tool is available to you that docters, high academics could just take and use as well. In the profession Inkscape is about. And all these things work like that.
Basically for Inkscape I don't see much of a problem in a sense of what does the majority allow? I mean that in other cases things are beyond acceptable.
With Inkscape yes, you must do everything yourself. It is basically a noble tool (but you must do everything yourself!). This typical character of a professional tool. You'd yes, have to first invest in understanding how everything works. And then do everything yourself.
I think too little people realize that sort of things.
It could take a reply and a conversation to say it completely.
Hi.. I am very sorry that you are frustrated with some aspects o inkscape UX. Trust me i am too and trying to fix some.
Problem is that Inkscape is more general tool than sweethome3d so we need to satisfy much more workflows than just one specific also hude legacy code and dependence on GTK. I know its hard to understand this stuff if you are not involved in development. I invite you to help project and add som documentation or donate to the project .
btw:
I would not call our pattern workflows easiest but i don't believe if you google how to use patterns in inkscape it would be not solved in 2 minutes. That being said i am also not happy how pattern works (especali editing)
Hi,
the filling with pattern is the function i would use more often since i started to use inkscape to create paths to cut and engrave with my lasercutter.
I didn't find an easyuse solution yet but since i setted again my lasercutter after an year i'll try to use inkscape again, also with the help of Tyler's gif.
Is often more difficult to use opensource softwares (for many reasons involved with freedom) and i understand Itay's frustration. I understand it's the consequence of hard work and difficult results, and i'm sure he will find again the strenght to put other efforts on it - another time. Sometimes it's necessary to take a pause, it's physiologic and there's nothing bad in it!
The point being made - which. children do not understand - is that time is money. If I waste 1 minute an hour on reading a poorly edited manual, searching for you tube vids, waiting for simple functions to work, learning the 17 types of tesselations instead of using an array command, preparing for the memory dump bug, etc, etc, etc - and then having to deal with posts that defame one's character - the time adds up. With 2000 hours.billable per year - that's 33.33 hours of money wasted. When the act Jr designer makes appx $30 per hour - that time loss equates to $1000. How the heck is inkscape free? The only real professional sponsor it might have is red hat. And inkscape wonders why!? Professionals seek professionalism. The lack of primary concern for our time is extremely unprofessional and it drives away funding. Inkscape has targeted the amateur audience and they complain when they get what they want - amateurish penny ante donations which are all their selected audience can afford.
Professionals understand the concept of "opportunity cost". They also understand the benefits and drawbacks of software developed by volunteers.
Just ask this professional: https://segtsy.com/never-boring-with-bohr/
Complaining that Inkscape does not meet your specific commercial interests is self-serving, petty and infantile.
@NELCHAI
It is frustrating, yes. But money doesn't guarantee anything.
The inkscape project is built upon volunteer work and it's a dilemma how to integrate funded development of features.
Like refactoring code is less groundbreaking from a marketing viewpoint althoughthat could boost performance. The project aims for the best foss svg editor on the market -nothing more.
They hold no liability or guarantee the function of the program as a whole. Thinking of packages like the cairo renderer -relying on third party wrriten code.
Yet, at the moment, it is still working somehow.
Contrary, how "professional" softwares work.
Can speak from how it is in the architect field here. Archicad is being the most used, about 90% of the market.
Now, they develop a new version every year. Files are not backwards compatible, nor can you copy&paste even a single line from a newer to an older instance.
A single license costs around 3800 $ and if you had a previous version and want to upgrade annually that'd cost 2200 $ +vat.
What do you get in return?
A clunky interface that provides the user experience of win95 and no direct feedback with the developers. Even mspaint provides better anti-aliasing.
Menus not opening with text visible, constant need to resize them; can't open two dialogs simultaneously. Can't change the theming, icons or menu font size.
"It's perfect" is their ultimate trump card on their fb group -if it doesn't proveide flawless user experience, it's all your fault.
Why is that industry standard in the professional field?
It doesn't make sense. Snapping is so horrible that you have to wait extra seconds on finding the right coordinates with the dimensioning tool and eventually start over times.
It's a reliable time waster. If it worked as intended, it could cut the drawing time to 10%.
Yet here we are, with pirated crack codes because 80% of that 90% who are using archicad cannot afford a single license.
Seriously. I'm getting more and more annoyed with it. Like, how many developers would it require to produce a capable cad software from scratch? Would the fees be more than the cost of 10 ac single license?
Getting the feeling it's the same with simple 2D vector drawing softwares. You have to invest into developing them or rely on how the software is developed by other's ideas.
Although I still think you'd be better off using a game engine for your project. There are many foss ones too.
I am not being industry specific. Software should be developed for professional end users. By professional I mean those who want to use the software to make a lot of money. One minute of wasted end user time is too much. Time expectations from the user must be priority one. Professional software understands that. Professionals fund professionalism. Lazur mentions architects paying for crap software. They do so because it is a biz deduction. If inkscape solved their needs in a professional way - and if it were structured as a biz that could take deductable donations - the architects would be using and funding it instead. The facts of biz mean they would be donating the same amount - but they would be using software they helped make appropriate for drawing. It seems inkscape intentionally does not accept that.
The language of the professional is the language that must be used by the developers. EG professional drawers look for an array, not a tesselations tile. Blender calls it an array because that is what it is. Expecting that coders read a few books that we who draw for a living practically memorize, is not asking too much when they claim to be making quality product for our market. Learn how we use drawing and facilitate what we do. Functions and speed - not work arounds.
And as for volunteerism - inkscape has to rely upon it because they do not have enough professional funding. I just explained why. Also, when a 20 year professional UX-UI designer comes into the forum and tells us we need to improve - how is he reacted to? Is he asked to volunteer his time to offer his suggestions in a more formal way? NO. He was basically told to go away. Inkscape's insulting tone and the way it treats users is why it is not better funded. For example - declaring my advice to a user who wanted to enter fullscreen mode - I told him it was f11 - to be useless and distracting info - then web host started a new thread as though it were me doing so - and posted it in cafe. Why? To childishly insult a user. And then surprise when volunteers and funding walk away. Even this thread shows the attitude problem of "play our game our way or we will take our toys and go home."
All contributors to this thread should watch it closely - it will be edited or disappear.
@NELCHAI
My impression it's the other way around. They put in work as passion/mission.
There are plenty of funds but the project has to spend every last bit of it as it is run as a non-profit organisation.
As long as it doesn't come with the burden of too much responsibility or cause negative feelings.
It's quite understandable that unasked criticism even if intended constructively is a hit and miss.
This forum is here to provide a flourishing user community, and discussing flaws only is a not so welcomed part. Even at best, we focus on solutions.
Ok, there are flaws. What can we do about it?
We need to learn programming or contacting developers and learn the initiative of the project,
track what are the bottlenecks of the issue and find a way to fix them.
The other day it was asked why inkscape cannot import raster images larger than 32768 px. It was a specific issue from another user and I also encountered that issue.
What can we do about it? Turns out, not much. Inkscape is using cairo to render raster images and it's a hard-wired limitation that it can't handle.
Can it be patched? No.
Needs cairo to rebuild a portion of their codes? Probably. Do they have the intention, if so, what do they need to do so?
Or
Can we find a new rendering engine? Vulkan, perhabs?
Probably. Can we try out different renderersin the mean time? Yes. What's needed there? Basic understanding of inkscape codebase and knowledge on compiling a custom build.
You see these need more knowledge of the project and coding in general.
Either pay for development or make volunteers interested. Never expect something out of thin air.
The project provided something many find useful without listening to anyone for their ideas on direction. It was never an intention to make every future user happy at the first place.
@Lazur There are not plenty of finds avail. - that is why they are seeking a volunteer Mac specialist instead of paid as the job was posted on site a few weeks ago. If project is non-profit, in US that would probably be a 501 c3. Good to know and will confirm later. When much of the criticism has been the same for 10 years + the problem is not the complainers. The problem is a lack of response to user observations. I saw the post about Cairo and i think I posted as well. The question is why have the options been defined as they are? If other software - blender - can do more, and is foss too - why can't inkscape? A - it does not want to. The philosophy is that the users should play that way or the toys will be taken away. Exactly the wrong philosophy.
As for the fun of it - inkscape is perceived by professional end users as near useless bloat of a dead corpse built on work arounds, vocabulary used by those who do not understand it, Swiss cheese gimmickry, and kilobyte era code hacks. At some point those problems will need to be solved. We are already at that point. Encourage having fun making a tool rather than a toy. MANAGEMENT
Success will attract the successful. It is more fun and useful to network with success.
@NELCHAI
I see a huge roadblock for improvement is sticking to the svg format. But that won't change as it is the very base of the project.
You got some point but unfortunately those won't reach to developers or affect development in a positive direction. Better asking question than straight up tell them how outdated their work&work ethics are.
As far as I know the blender foundation pays its developers.
And they are not based on an outdated proof of concept standard defined by third party vendors.
They also have a wider user/market, and the industry is catching on. Right now they are competing with maya -3dsmax era seems to be gone.
Guess if there was a more severe competition in the 2D vectorgraphic market developers would be more motivated focusing on those issues. Not knowing for sure, as said before it wasn't the first intention to go big, just to be the best at editing svg-s freely.
@Lazur Thanks for the honest discussion.
Do you remember the earlier blender interface? It was horrible. The forums saw the same complaints as inkscape sees. The management reacted the same way too. Then one day, the euro auto industry basically went to blender and told them they would fund the foundation - if - blender adopted a professional mind set, stopped acting like territorial children, and put user time management above all else. Today, after redesigning the interface, and concentrating on end user nerds - they have the finding to pay their developers. The lesson is that professional behavior attracts professional funding.
Inkscape could do the same for 2D. SVG is not - as far as I understand it - the problem. ( Seeing it as a changing protocol rather than a stabilized tool to create 2D art with is problematic and a focus problem. ) The Mandalorian has dissolved the edge between the real and virtual stage. Artists need to draw props accurately in 2D - accurate as in CAD precise - and then model them in 3D to print as safe, useful props on stage. The best workflow to do so will be with a much improved inkscape for tech drawing and elevation into blender to terminate the pipeline.
First, inkscape needs to eliminate the childishness and begin to attract donations by elimination of the time wasters.
@NELCHAI Glad I can also vent out my fustration about archicad.
Used blender time to time and was familiar with the 2.79 interface.
Stlii need to relearn the new gui. The new one favors old users of maya yet the industry pipeline is still revolves aroud maya and the market is just sloowly changing.
As agencies would need to reinvest in developing their own ways, recreate old assets etc.
It's a debate how blender still cannot be considered as an industry standard. It's a tool for a job, and there are paid competitors outshining on one aspect. Blender is a swiss army knife, good for general purpose, but not coming without compromises when it comes to large scale projects.
It can simulate alot of things but professionals use houdini or ansys for that. Can sculp, but z-brush is better at it. Can video edit and composite, but davinci resolve is more preferred.
Has its ways for parametric design,but can't compete against grasshopper etc.
Blender foundation is autonomous. The founder had a vision and even though adobe also funds blender development, they won't give any authorship or decision in favor to them -hopefully.
Blender doesn't offer a one size fits all solution. For gaming, there is unity and unreal -and thus they stopped developing blender game engine.
Fitting tool to do the fitting job or even a professional tool can end up a time waster choice for the wrong project.
For what it's matter blender can do the most necessary drawing you'd import from inkscape so it's easier not to rely on importing.
Fully aware that the limitations I personally encountered with inkscape come from me pushing things to the extreme. Hardly anyone is drawing some of what I did previously and althoughit would be nice to have those issues solved it's totally reasonable that the development is focusing on current user satisfaction.
Anyway I'm always considering changing careers and having a go with developing a decent (cad) drawing program.
@Lazur Are you aware of a foss called qcad? It might be useful to refactor it.
you're frustrated with Inkscape's usability and how it falls short of your expectations, especially when compared to older software like CorelDraw or Microsoft Word. You're particularly disappointed with the difficulty in finding solutions to basic tasks and the lack of intuitive features, such as filling objects with patterns. While you appreciate the effort put into the Inkscape project, you feel that it's not designed with graphic designers or everyday users in mind. In contrast, you mention Sweet Home 3D, which despite its imperfections, is easier to use and gets the job done with less effort.